Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,987
SPOILERS BELOW (TEW2, SH2, MGS2)

You might not believe it, you might think it is utterly false but I think I can back it up. In fact, I dare say it is *also* a modern Metal Gear Solid 2 in many ways. Bear with me on this, give me the time to explain.

It is difficult to describe how much of an impact The Evil Within 2 has been for me. Rarely a game has absorbed me to the point where I would feel this dreadful feeling of emptiness for days after I completed it. It was an exhausting but ultimately fulfilling journey. That this game had flopped so much in sales ultimately meant that few people took the time to think about this game critically, and even fewer wrote it down on the internet. What the game said, and how we would interpret it remained uncharted territory, and there isn't a worse fate for a survival horror game than to realize there isn't a lot written about it. This crucial need for a survival horror to exist beyond the game itself, the food for thoughts needed to crystallize our experience...all things that TEW2 were denied at launch. So I'd like to start a discussion about how I felt and how I experienced the game, after I have spent much needed months to let it brew in my head.

There are many things that pushes me to make such a claim, both thematically and qualitatively, so I'll try to explain in a way that is clear for everyone. But the gist of it is that this game has the intelligence and insight to think about how a survival horror should be created thematically, and does it in a way that is utterly impressive.

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Silent Hill and STEM

One crucial part of both games is that they both come from somewhere, they are both sequel but they also aren't. This history is what makes the games so much more important. Silent Hill 1 is the story of a cult, with a town controlled through the power of Alessa Gillespie. Her trauma and resentment is shaping the town to what she see fit. Harry Mason, the playable character, has no control over this town and neither has any other inhabitants of the town. Harry was removed from the picture story-wise, he was driving the story forward, but he wasn't the focus of the story.

Silent Hill 2, though, is radically different in its interpretation. They took the most interesting character of the first game, the town of Silent Hill, and shaped it to take a central focus to the plot. Suddenly, no one was at the control of the town, it was of its own mind. This fundamentally changes the dynamic the characters have with the town. They weren't seeing the product of someone else's creation, they were seeing themselves. The town decided that it would shape itself from the fear, pain, trauma and guilt of the people it chooses. James Sunderland became the central focus, both with his personal story and how it would visualize within Silent Hill. Every enemy, every area was open to interpretation as to what it says in regard to James, but also to the other characters roaming the town.

The Evil Within 1 and 2 follows a strangely similar pattern. STEM is a system that allows the connection of several minds together in a virtual world. Using the brain of an individual at its core, a world is created that is shaped by the owner. The Evil Within 1 starts from here. STEM's core is the brain of Ruvik, and he is a ruthless psychopath who shapes his world however he wants it and tries to kill everyone who is connected inside it as revenge. The main character, Sebastian Castellanos, is as useful, if not even less, as Harry Mason was to the general plot. None of what happens concerns him to a deep level. It is first and foremost the story of Ruvik, slowly unraveled through the course of the game. While Harry at least had his daughter to save as a motivator, the tiny bit of backstory of Sebastian was concerning the loss of his daughter and the disappearance of his wife through diaries, which only explained why he was so aloof and stern through the main story, but wasn't deeply connected to the general plot of the first Evil Within game.

It now comes to The Evil Within 2. STEM, just like the town of Silent Hill has been reinterpreted. The core of the system is still helmed by an individual, this time by Sebastian's presumed dead daughter. She doesn't shape its world, but is rather used as a stabilizer for the town of Union. As the core is nowhere to be found, Union starts to crumble. This is where people are able to shape the town into what they want them to. People, linked together through the STEM system, are able to directly influence this world, and make the changes they want both to the town and the people inside it. This particular difference is what makes The Evil Within 2 shine, and maybe serve as an evolution of the concept behind Silent Hill 2.

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Sebastian's continuous role


What needs to be understood is that the town, instead of becoming this unknowable space that does unexplained things seemingly influenced by the people inside without their consent, is now at the service of the people. The enemy isn't just the town or yourself, it's all the people who uses it to shape their own worlds inside it. The focus is more than ever on the human side, and this is probably where TEW2 goes above and beyond to deliver an experience. This is where it gets fascinating.

At the center of this is, weirdly enough, Sebastian Castellanos. This barely-a-character from the first game immensely benefited from this history to swerve into a much tighter focus in the second game, as opposed to Silent Hill 2 who started with a mostly clean slate. His meager, but nonetheless striking backstory told through diaries in TEW1 becomes important in this sequel as he is in a quest to find his daughter inside the virtual world of STEM.

Many things are striking, and decidedly unusual when it comes to the handling of a main character in a survival-horror universe. The first is for the sequel to fully acknowledge what happened in the past games, which seldom happens in the genre as games are very self-contained, and the second is to make the experience of the previous game something that is carried through the second. Resident Evil, for example, is full of characters that never seemed to be scarred by what happened previously during their new adventures. Clock Tower has Jennifer coming back as a protagonist in the second game, but her trauma is soon waved away as a the threat of a new Scissorman appears. In the case of Sebastian, he didn't, and couldn't move on from the events of Beacon Mental Hospital. His trauma is a crucial part of the story, and the way it is handled is fascinating. This focus is even more surprising because TEW1 was in many ways a RE4 clone that didn't touch upon the mental well-being of Sebastian, and the ending didn't indicate that he would feel the after-effects of his hellish journey. He was pretty much poised to become the Leon Kennedy-like of the series, coming out unscathed of every horrific events he has gone through, but Sebastian came out as a wreck, and I couldn't even begin to tell you how surprising it was that things turned out this way.

The events of the first game have seen him deeply scarred, and the gaslighting of his experience by his peers has made matters worse as he was made to believe it never happened in the first place. In fact, one indicator he was convincing himself it wasn't true and not many has picked up is the hand wrap on his right hand that he carries throughout the game. Ruvik, the antagonist the first game, has made an indelible mark on anyone who has visited his world on their right hand. An irrefutable proof of what they experienced was real, but the constant psychological abuse he had to suffer back in the real world was such that he started to doubt it ever happened, that he was just mentally ill. This is something that follows him throughout the game even as he finds himself in another instance of STEM. Now that I know it exists, what was real ? And what was false ? If STEM really existed, have I ever came out of STEM in the first place ?

Going back to what I said previously, SH2's Silent Hill used the past and guilt of the people against them, yet it was never truly antagonistic. It could be seen as a trial by fire to overcome what ails the people who finds themselves drawn to the town. You could, theoretically, come out a stronger person out of it. It was a reflection of themselves they had to face. STEM, on the other hand, becomes more interesting than that because it is more than a reflection of Sebastian since it happens inside someone's world. This reflection can be shaped, by actual people, to show Sebastian the things they want him to see. Considering his role cannot be dissociated from his experiences, and his trauma plays a huge part in everything he does with how the world shapes itself, the implications of The Evil Within 2 becomes much more interesting to dissect at a human level.

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Lingering Trauma


The trauma of Sebastian coupled with the world of STEM creates a place where his mental illness is directly used against him by the people who wishes him harm, but also by the system itself at an insidious level. STEM forces people to relive their memories that are coloured by their state of mind. Think of it like a depressed person who would block out their happy memories and only remembers the bad one but at an even worse level. Sebastian would relive his memories through STEM and only focus on the bad side, make it ten times worse than it actually was, with no hope at forgiveness or redemption. This is the kind of thing that happens to Sebastian throughout the journey. One example of this is the graffiti posted above, a nod back to his experience of Mental Beacon Hospital. He cannot be made to forget, as he needs to be fully broken.

Again, this is something that TEW2 iterates on SH2 in an even smarter way. The guilt and trauma isn't just suppressed with the goal to face them, it is processed through a system that aims to make you relive your memories, make them infinitely worse than they are because of Sebastian's trauma and coping mechanisms, and rewrite them as the new and real narrative. This is not just an exploration of a mental state, but how it evolves over time, and built upon a survival horror setting. But what is most interesting is that it works especially well because the player is the ultimate witness. The player knows about what he had lived through the first game, so his newly crafted experience of Beacon Mental Hospital, that we have to relive through differently again and again through the course of the sequel becomes evidence of Sebastian's mental state, and how his trauma is affecting every part of his being. The goal of this sequel isn't about discovering what is affecting Sebastian, which is the premise of many survival-horrors that are self-contained and has to restart from a clean slate every time, it is going the extra mile on displaying out how it affects him.

James Howell in his 'A Memory of Fire' analysis of The Evil Within 2 had this to say:
Memory here mimics a neurological process called "reconsolidation." The brain simultaneously summons and re-crystalizes a recollection, editing old information with fresh context. Memories are written as re-read.

Simple definitions fail a complex process. We need the strength of paradox. Memory is fire, an element that always changes, that sacrifices each of its shapes to remain intact. Memories persist as do flames — through transformation and replacement.

Silent Hill never once claimed to be wrong about what the characters experience, it only tries to become the trial to overcome. Face yourself, and you'll come out of it alive. The Evil Within 2 brings doubt on top of this premise. What if it isn't true ? What if what's being shown is not really what happened, and only you, the player, is able to make what's right from wrong ? It's in this interstice between truth and lies that TEW2 manages to offer something new to the genre of Survival Horror. It's not just about using someone's trauma against them. It's not even about discovering what the character has to face, it's about using the player's omniscience as the driving force of the game. The player, who knows what happened, becomes in a position where they don't just spectate Sebastian's journey the same way they did James Sunderland, they re-enact his life experiences like they did before. Through repetition and awareness, the player doesn't just follow what's along, they have the full knowledge of what's going on and can assimilate the differences between what they've played in The Evil Within 1 and what's happening in the sequel at a meta-narrative level, and it is a device that another mainstream and successful game has made: Metal Gear Solid 2.

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Indeed, this is a similar pattern as to what happens in Metal Gear Solid 2, something that James Howell has written with much more eloquence and clarity than I could:
Metal Gear Solid 2 is a good example of how this works. Players already knew the story archetype from Metal Gear Solid. A specially trained soldier arrived out of obscurity onto a battlefield. Betrayals from supporting characters and revelations about his past undermined his self-assurance, but he emerged with new confidence after the mission's final obstacles. Raiden's story featured different characters, locations, and revelations than Snake's, but the game organized these elements in a familiar pattern. Because we knew the story archetype, we could appreciate the player's role in the game's metanarrative — its self-awareness as the sequel to Metal Gear Solid.

The story archetypes that compose The Evil Within revolves around the way he shapes his guilt to blame himself and the way he works to resolve them through acceptance and confrontation. In TEW2, his self-image is so low that he actively works to re-shape old memories in order to take the blame for things he isn't to blame for. The first instance of Sebastian's rewriting of his own memories come from the opening sequence, in which Sebastian is alone trying to save his daughter from the house fire, even though journals present in the first game tells that both his wife and firefighters were with him during this tragedy. The opening already showcases Sebastian's state of mind and his role as an unreliable narrator. What is made apparent is that his only way to cope is to blame himself even more, to the point that he distorts the truth to fit his own narrative that everything is his fault. Gradually, The death of his partner Joseph became his own fault even though he had nothing to do with it, and the disappearance of his wife was also his even though she left by herself. James writes:
By assuming responsibility for events beyond his control, Sebastian creates a framework that makes bad events understandable. Self-blame gives structure to the chaos of an uncontrollable world. Sebastian uses the coping strategy so much that he actually revises old memories to fit the pattern, rather than allowing evidence to challenge his assumed guilt.

This coping of Sebastian is made even more apparent when the games forces you to relive the same levels as The Evil Within 1. More than the added knowledge of the player I mentioned before, James goes on to say that the game itself incorporates "the player's memory of the first game as a game into its storytelling.".

This screen shown above comes from another memory of Sebastian within STEM. He sees himself back in Beacon Mental Hospital, at the very same spot he first met Laura, one of the antagonists of the first game. Not only that, the black cinematic bars from TEW1 that was removed in the sequel makes another appearance at this precise moment. All conditions are met to call back to your experience of the first game as a player, but how it is also different from what it once was, as the presence of the other Sebastian betrays his inability to move on.

James' interpretation of the callbacks goes much beyond simply replaying the levels of the first game, as he also finds among other things that the first memory Sebastian to relives happens in the exact same place as the title menu, and starting the game puts you beyond those double doors, which leads to the same place as the screen above shows, facing his other self from the previous game, locked away in his memories, but also in the game world of The Evil Within 1. According to James, "Sebastian takes us to a literal space that he remembers, while also taking us through the start screen of The Evil Within. He is back; so are we.".

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(credit: James Howell)

The Evil Within makes it known that it wants the player to be aware of being one, and Sebastian to be the character of a video game. Sebastian's arc in the sequel cannot be dissociated from his role as a video game character, as his trauma is directly linked to the player, and the result directly crafted from our experience through the first Evil Within. We are both his savior and his tormentor, Sebastian came out alive but scarred. He needs us but he also needs to reject us in order to be able to live. Raiden's rejection of the player in Metal Gear Solid 2 was illustrated by the rejection of his dog tag with our information written on it, in order for him to write his own story. But to move away from us, Sebastian needs more than that. He needs to stop re-enacting what the player did right now, and start changing things.

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Sebastian's rejection happens through a series of events but one in particular is the highlight of this game. I've previously said that other people can shape the world inside STEM, and this is precisely what Theodore does. He manipulates Sebastian into numerous guilt trips in order to break him even further, but his gradual acknowledgment that things aren't his fault allows for the strength to fight back against Theodore and at the same time his self-image. This happens in a literal way, as Theodore sends him against his worst nightmares by facing the bosses of The Evil Within 1 through a boss gauntlet. But when the player is given control for Sebastian to re-enact the events of the first game, he suddenly stops running against The Sadist and decides to fight back, to the point where he takes The Sadist's chainsaw from him and slashes him into two. This gauntlet sees Sebastian taking apart the notable bosses of the first Evil Within, as to finally confront his pain and guilt, with the strength he gained from the reconciliation of the player and the character, this time not by being dependent of the player but by taking control and for the player to follow his lead. The repetition is no more, and he faces his memories in order to be rewritten as they once were, but with the strength to not be stricken with guilt over it.

James says:

Sebastian and the player received the revolver as a reminder of their collaborative strength. Sebastian now revises desperate moments from The Evil Within to reflect that strength. He initially fails when he runs from The Sadist, reliving the player's memories. He fulfills the archetype and the metanarrative when he detaches from the player, reverses the normal player/character power dynamic, and directs the player to overwrite their memories of defeat from The Evil Within. [...]

The Evil Within 2 breaks the fourth wall to communicate his autonomy. When he refuses the elevator, he refuses a key part of the first game's design. Elevators gave Sebastian a place to stand while new areas loaded in The Evil Within. From Sebastian's perspective, they transported him from one nightmare to another. Here, we see another instance where the first game's design damages Sebastian in the fiction. Sebastian acknowledged their function in passing at the game's end: "If I make it out alive, I'm never riding in an elevator again."

When Sebastian says "Not this time," he states more than his resolve. He will not load The Evil Within's title sequence. He refuses the first game's design.

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This, is also another thing that I believe The Evil Within 2 manages to do better than Silent Hill 2. It is not just a romanticized version of mental illness that ends with death. Sebastian is allowed for the room to breathe, think and handle his illness. He makes mistakes but is allowed to make amends. He is given the ability to heal both by himself and through the help of the player. Psychological horror doesn't just end with gloom and doom, it doesn't have to demonize mental illness as something you will never be able to move away from, as if you'll always be fundamentally broken and your only respite is to end yourself. Sebastian's journey is one of healing and fulfillment, not one of victimization and despair. To be able to pull something like that in a survival horror and even more, to be successful at it, is something I deeply enjoy. Especially as the Silent Hill fanbase has been trying to tie the "In Water" into an established canon, something that still makes me feel uncomfortable, as if the only way to forgive yourself is to end your own life. This is why I consider it a modern Silent Hill 2 the most, because its handling of the tropes are now reused in a way that is more current to our times. It doesn't ape what came before, it understands and transforms it into something that feels contemporary.

Sebastian's interaction with his daughter is also interesting to see. From a man who painfully made peace with the idea that he'll never see his daughter again, to him progressively grasping the surreal idea that she is still alive and has to find her in a surreal world. It's the kind of honest reaction that you see in a person that cannot just instantly act as if nothing happened after years of separation. It's an emotion and feeling that needs to grow back, an awkwardness that has to be conquered. The idea of a physical and mental barrier that separates him from his daughter is interesting. I liked that about it, it didn't feel stale, it didn't feel like the usual kind of video game dad stories, it felt very believable.

All in all, it was an emotional journey that I am extremely glad to have played and I couldn't be more sad to see that it flopped. The real crime is that I got it only for 20€ when it's worth 60€ and more. An incredible crop of a game that is a reinvention of the psychological horror genre for me. It doesn't just carelessly reuse tropes, it understands them, assimilates them and then puts them into the game in a way that fits the themes. It's a game done with a certain kind of intelligence that I don't think many survival horrors takes the time to display. I do not want to bog down my thread even more as I wrote in a frenzy, but the gameplay system is equally incredible, and as you might have surmised works incredibly well to fit the themes of the game. I'd compare the open-world to a conductor guiding you through the world, you know something is going to happen, you just don't know when. I am now convinced that open-world works extremely well for the survival-horror. Don't knock it until you try it.

I hope it'll allow for some of you to reconsider the worth of this game, or maybe to be interested into playing it. It's very much worth it, it's not often I praise a game like this, but it deserves every praise it gets, and I'm sad it doesn't have the same kind of discussion that Silent Hill 2 got throughout its lifetime.

Also! Many thanks to James Howell's analysis that shaped much of my critical thinking about the game. His analysis is pure genius and you will not be disappointed by this read that goes into much more detail than I ever could. It's not just a must read, it's a defining point of any critical writing of the game just like his MGS2 analysis from 11 years ago. Go and read it.
 

Pixel Grotto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
894
Haha I somehow knew this was a thread by you when I saw the title! I stopped reading the whole thing since I haven't played TEW yet and don't want to be spoiled, but everything I've seen about TEW 1 & 2 makes me sure that the games are right up my alley.

Subbing to this thread so I can come back to it in the future. Thank you for actually writing long analysis on here.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,181
I have a difficult time playing through spooky games (they legit freak me out to the point of stopping), so I watched the Two Best Friends LP thinking it'd be a goofy hoot. Boy, I was shocked at how great the game seemed, top to bottom. My only real complaint is the game gets a bit cutscene heavy toward the end, and the serial killer's gimmick was never quite topped. Still, the game seems wonderful, and I might just pick it up when I get the cash despite my own reluctance to play spooky games.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
The game is masterful and it really doesn't get enough love. IMO opinion it's weird seeing people super hyped for Resident Evil 2 Remake, yet that game is likely not going to be all that different to TEW2, which was met with a very muted reaction. If the game had been called Resident Evil 8 or Silent Hill: Something Or Other, it would have done way better, IMO. Branding seems to play a huge role in how games are treated.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I dont think TEW2 has any of the mystery and otherworldly feeling that makes Silent Hill 2 so compelling. Part of why Silent Hill 2 works so well is that it focuses on showing the player subtle hints and suggestions for them to figure out what is going on and draw their own conclusions. By contrast, TEW2 is much more straightforward, at times over-explanatory, and leans too much into the 'big bad corporation' boogeyman and their psuedo-science rather than making a compelling psychological nightmare.
 

Transistor

Outer Wilds Ventures Test Pilot
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,400
Washington, D.C.
The Evil Within 2 is such a different game than the first one, but I don't mind that one bit.

Hell, TEW2 is one of my games of the generation
 

Altera

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,963
I didn't read the OP because of spoilers, but if I thought TEW1 was awful, is TEW2 worth trying?
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
It's a deeply mediocre game with combat just barely on the edge of functional and writing that's just hilariously bad throughout the entire experience.
But I appreciate your thread title because it made me laugh out loud at what a ridiculous suggestion is that this is anywhere near Silent Hill 2.
 
OP
OP
Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,987
Haha I somehow knew this was a thread by you when I saw the title! I stopped reading the whole thing since I haven't played TEW yet and don't want to be spoiled, but everything I've seen about TEW 1 & 2 makes me sure that the games are right up my alley.

Subbing to this thread so I can come back to it in the future. Thank you for actually writing long analysis on here.

Thank you, I think you'll appreciate them based on my reading of your LTTP of the Resident Evil series that I enjoyed reading. There's a lot to enjoy especially if you value the weight and crafting of worlds in the classic Resident Evil formula. It's a bit of a crisscrossing with Silent Hill in the ways they are presented too.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Great post op.

I made a similar thread on the old forum after finishing the game upon release, saying that I hadn't played anything this good in the genre since SH2.

Love how it's not about cheap scares or disgusting gore but instead it felt very psychological and subtle and visually very striking (especially the Stefano stuff).

It's just an excellent overall package.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
I didn't read the OP because of spoilers, but if I thought TEW1 was awful, is TEW2 worth trying?

I highly recommend this game to people that didn't like the first game.

TEW1 is good in its own way but imo it was not what most people wanted from a Mikami "RE" and in the end it hurt the IP. I think the series would be in a much better place right now if TEW2 was the first game in the series.
 

Altera

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,963
Absolutely. I don't know if it's something akin to Silent Hill 2 (as i never played it), but The Evil Within 2 is a masterpiece. TEW1 sucks, TEW2 is awesome.

Yes, absolutely. The way The Evil Within 2 handles the events of the first game is so damn good that even though I also don't like the first one, I recommend playing it before 2 anyway.

I highly recommend this game to people that didn't like the first game.

TEW1 is good in its own way but imo it was not what most people wanted from a Mikami "RE" and in the end it hurt the IP. I think it would be in a much better place right now if TEW2 was the first game in the series.

I'll give it a shot then. Looks like it's still kind of up there in price. I'll give it a shot once it's sub $20.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,673
As someone who liked the game - but not as much as the original Evil Within, which I played a couple of days before jumping into the second - I really, really disagree.

The psychological horror elements you highlight were especially egregious, as the narrative chooses to ignore more interesting conflicts, like working with Kidman (despite what she did to Joseph (outside of the single throwaway reveal you get for finding all the collectibles)), a motivational speaker in a shared consciousness (outside of the half-assed turn from O'Neal), the displacement of the hapless individuals who didn't know they were in a simulated reality, blah blah, to instead focus on a pretty trite 'mah dead daughter!' thing (and even then, ignores the more interesting elements of that, like what the hell a world rooted in the mind of a child would look like, etc).

The story of the first game was neat in a Twin Peaks mystery, 'anything could happen' sort of sense, but in trying to be more cohesive and a lot less of a 'notable horror of the past 30 years' mixtape thing in terms of structure, the narrative of the second is way less interesting and engaging.

Great gameplay though (outside of the super bad bosses). Revolutionary semi-open world structure for a survival horror title (for the first half anyway).
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
Canada
Great post! I'm a huge stan for both Evil Within games, I prefer the first one for its fever-dream-esque tone and more deranged atmosphere, but also appreciate The Evil Within 2's more "beautifully grotesque" aesthetic (like the Hannibal TV show).

Truly criminal how underrated these games are.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
94,859
here
its fine, much better than the first game

i dont feel like it went far enough with the idea of the malleable nature of memories and STEM in general

its not nearly as revolutionary as SH2, not in its writing especially
 
OP
OP
Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,987
Great post op.

I made a similar thread on the old forum after finishing the game upon release, saying that I hadn't played anything this good in the genre since SH2.

Love how it's not about cheap scares or disgusting gore but instead it felt very psychological and subtle and visually very striking (especially the Stefano stuff).

It's just an excellent overall package.

For the sake of research I read your thread and I was surprised at how angry people were. I guess it's serious business for them.

As someone who liked the game - but not as much as the original Evil Within, which I played a couple of days before jumping into the second - I really, really disagree.

The psychological horror elements you highlight were especially egregious, as the narrative chooses to ignore more interesting conflicts, like working with Kidman (despite what she did to Joseph (outside of the single throwaway reveal you get for finding all the collectibles)), a motivational speaker in a shared consciousness (outside of the half-assed turn from O'Neal), the displacement of the hapless individuals who didn't know they were in a simulated reality, blah blah, to instead focus on a pretty trite 'mah dead daughter!' thing (and even then, ignores the more interesting elements of that, like what the hell a world rooted in the mind of a child would look like, etc).

The story of the first game was neat in a Twin Peaks mystery, 'anything could happen' sort of sense, but in trying to be more cohesive and a lot less of a 'notable horror of the past 30 years' mixtape thing in terms of structure, the narrative of the second is way less interesting and engaging.

Great gameplay though (outside of the super bad bosses). Revolutionary semi-open world structure for a survival horror title (for the first half anyway).

I don't think working with Kidman is a more interesting conflict than dealing with Sebastian's trauma. The DLCs has set up that she was rebelling against Mobius and was saved because what transpired inside STEM was unknown to the organization. Kidman does deserve her own game though, but it wasn't necessarily compatible with Sebastian's journey, as she had already dealt with her past and her relation with Sebastian in the two DLCs. Theodore was used effectively in the way he was trying to manipulate Sebastian and succeeded. It led to many incredible setpieces in the game. The rest I think has been dealt with effectively through notes and files and resonance points. It's not like this game doesn't have any world-building.

The daughter is not very much the focus of the story even though it is a driving force, which is something that was pretty clear. It's much more interesting to see how adults are shaping the world than what Lily could do with it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
I feel as though there are quite a few people who enjoy TEW series and appreciate the attention its getting but haven't played SH2 which is the crux of the OPs statement.

I also don't think I agree with the interpretation of the town of Silent Hill as a "face it and come out alive" with some sort of sentience.
 
May 17, 2018
3,454
It definitely takes inspiration from Silent Hill, but, it left out all the scares.

I really liked TEW2, but, I wouldn't put it up with the best survival horror games, cause, IMO, they forgot the horror part of the equation.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,373
You know my thoughts on the boss fights, so I don't want to go into a crazy amount of detail on that, but...I still just feel like the general combat and encounter design holds it back from being as iconic as SH2.

That's not to say SH2 had good combat, just that in the modern era I expect better mechanics and enemy/boss design out of games and TEW2 does not have either of those things.

I do like the horror stuff, but the action is just...not good.
 

Courage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,978
NYC
The last hour or so of this game is so goddamn powerful. When he finally finds his house, the confrontation with his wife, escaping with Lily. It was so emotionally cathartic after the mental torment Sebastian had to endure. If people liked Hellblade and how that game tackled mental illness, I don't see how they wouldn't love this game wrt its story.
 

MrH

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,995
I absolutely loved it, I finished it on both TP and FP, I actually enjoyed FP more as it felt more immersive and scary.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Man is that a thread title, Jesus. I feel like the post itself kind of misses what SH2 was at the time.

I hated TEW1, it's truly awful, but I will get a copy of 2 once I'm done with my current game, and I'm coming back here to kick off if it's not a masterpiece.

When SH2 came out it featured the best real-time rendering ever, the best art ever, the best writing ever, the best sound design ever, and maybe the best sound track ever. Evoking it is pretty bold.

I have an X and a Pro, no PC, which version do I buy?
 

impact

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,380
Tampa
Anything that gets compared to SH2 has my attention. Haven't played TEW1 or 2 so I just kinda skimmed the OP.

Sadly the game is way too expensive on the Steam sale. Maybe by October it'll be cheap.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
I feel as though they really are so different that its a disservice to give people the expectation that TEW2 has any sort of gameplay similarities despite the slightest bit of melee combat and guns with 6 bullets.
 
Nov 4, 2017
2,203
I just couldn't bring myself to play this without finishing the first one. And I couldn't bring myself to finish the first one with some of those awful stealth sections.

It's one of my gaming regrets though, and I'd like to replay it.
 

Courage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,978
NYC
It definitely takes inspiration from Silent Hill, but, it left out all the scares.

I really liked TEW2, but, I wouldn't put it up with the best survival horror games, cause, IMO, they forgot the horror part of the equation.
What do you define as horror then? This and SH2 would both fall under psychological horror. That type of horror, exploring the depths of one's psyche, can potentially be more affecting and profound to me than physical scares.
 

Driver

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,053
Southern California
I don't have time to read the entire OP just yet but I'll circle back around d tonight. TEW2 is a masterpiece and if not for Nier would have been my GOT last year.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
What do you define as horror then? This and SH2 would both fall under psychological horror. That type of horror, exploring the depths of one's psyche, can potentially be more affecting and profound to me than physical scares.

Pyramid Head's rape scene, reaching into the hole, the prisoner's voice; there is a subtle, terrifying horror to SH2. TEW2 borders more on the grotesque, the disturbing or deliberately violent.
 

Semblance

Member
Oct 26, 2017
793
California
I didn't think TEW2 reached the first game's heights, although it's a more consistent experience and still very good in its own right.
 

Escaflow

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,317
Great thread but Evil Within 2 isn't remotely scary or horrifying like the Silent Hill trilogy . When I'm playing TEW2 I felt relax , safe and not-intimidated .

When I'm playing Silent Hill , especially SH2 and SH3 , I felt claustrophobic , fear , nervous and disgusted but these are all the feelings that I wanted from a horror game .
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,148
I'm usually not one for horror games (stopped playing the first after an hour), but I absolutely love what I've seen so far about 10 hours into the game. I move at a glacial pace in this game. Definitely one of my surprises of the generation so far.

After getting weary of third person shooting from games like Uncharted and Binary Domain, TEW2 is a breath of fresh air. Every combat encounter is so tense in comparison. Non-regen health leads to such better game design, imo. I also really like the visual and artistic style of the game. As overplayed as Claire de Lune is in general, it compliments this game wonderfully. The Tchaikovsky piece was also great to hear! I had to do a double take when I heard it.

The engine is certainly not getting great framerates on my modest rig, but it can produce some beautiful scenes when all the lighting effects kick in. I had to cap it at 50 just to keep things stable.... first and only time I've had to compromise like this.

I've seen similar reactions to mine from many other non-horror fans. Maybe that speaks to its place as a horror game, but I stand by my strong early opinion of the game.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
94,859
here
What do you define as horror then? This and SH2 would both fall under psychological horror. That type of horror, exploring the depths of one's psyche, can potentially be more affecting and profound to me than physical scares.
it doesn't really have good physical or physiological horror, imo

its kind of all just explained to the player flat out as the game goes on, there isnt really much to infer about the situation. what you see is pretty much what you get

the only type of horror i think it does good is body horror
 
Oct 25, 2017
652
Noir York City
Did Huber write this?

But seriously I appreciate the thought put into this. I admit, I had nothing close to the reaction I had to SH2 (or 3, really) with this one but it's definitely a better "game", if that makes sense.
 

Zhukov

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
2,641
If TEW2 is a monument to the genre, then the genre is in dire straights indeed.

I spent a few mildly janky hours shanking and headshotting zombies, then the villain showed up with his anime cosplay dagger of evil whereupon I laughed my head off and uninstalled.
 
OP
OP
Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,987
The last hour or so of this game is so goddamn powerful. When he finally finds his house, the confrontation with his wife, escaping with Lily. It was so emotionally cathartic after the mental torment Sebastian had to endure. If people liked Hellblade and how that game tackled mental illness, I don't see how they wouldn't love this game wrt its story.

I was emotional too. This final part was very strong, the music especially still strikes a chord in me. I loved the way the camera shited the focus between Kidman and Sebastian instantly.



When SH2 came out it featured the best real-time rendering ever, the best art ever, the best writing ever, the best sound design ever, and maybe the best sound track ever. Evoking it is pretty bold.

I think nothing will compare to SH2 if only because it reached a legendary status. This is why I say it's a modern SH2, and not "as good" or "better". I think SH2 have things it excels that TEW2 doesn't but the opposite is definitely true. TEW2 has things that SH2 doesn't go the full distance and this is something that I appreciate. It's not just good, it goes to the kind of distance that SH2 haven't been and I like it a lot for that.

I feel as though they really are so different that its a disservice to give people the expectation that TEW2 has any sort of gameplay similarities despite the slightest bit of melee combat and guns with 6 bullets.

I've been thinking about it a lot and I find them very similar in that they are both psychological horror that focuses on the experience of a the character. It's not a straightforward psycho horror game like SH1 or 3 is, it's more emotional at its core even when it can undermine the horror elements. TEW2 is very much that for me.
 

Courage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,978
NYC
Pyramid Head's rape scene, reaching into the hole, the prisoner's voice; there is a subtle, terrifying horror to SH2. TEW2 borders more on the grotesque, the disturbing or deliberately violent.
Of course, and SH2 wouldn't be my favorite survival horror game without those sequences, but I'm more so referring to there being a layer beyond that which makes it even more terrifying. Both games protagonists are broken men burdened by their guilt and depression and are forced to confront their fears by being placed into the unknown. Their mental states and tragic circumstances are what provide the emotional core and anchor those scares to something tangible and human, unlike many other horror games.
 
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lumenflower

Member
Jan 8, 2018
173
NY
GOD DAMN. Beautiful post, OP. The best take I've seen on this site.

The Evil Within 2 is absolutely amazing— first time in literal ages I've felt compelled to plat a game. It's a hidden gem. Sebastian's journey and its resolution was so unexpectedly touching and powerful imo. The fact that it was so slept on is super depressing to me. I'm still hoping for some DLC, but I wouldn't hold my breath. :(